07 May 2020 07:02:12
Morning everyone
If the Newcastle take over goes ahead and awash with money they appoint Pochettino, do you think Ole's United would finish above or below Newcastle, a) Next season b) 21/22 season?

1.) 07 May 2020
07 May 2020 10:38:02
I think we will finish above new castle in both seasons.

2.) 07 May 2020
07 May 2020 10:51:13
Even with the lax FFP restrictions when Man City were taken over it took them years to build into a decent team.

Now, it's way harder to throw money around. Plus, I think we've turned a corner and are a couple of class signings away from really closing the gap on the top two.

3.) 07 May 2020
07 May 2020 11:28:59
carful obi, this kind of talk is forbidden.

4.) 07 May 2020
07 May 2020 11:31:48
Wow Red Man, scraping the barrel there to have a shot at Ole.

Firstly, there are a lot of ifs in that question, IF the take over happens, IF they decided to spend loads of money, IF they appoint Pochettino.

But let's pander to the idea for a minute. So the first question is how many of the current Newcastle squad would make it into our first team? Fabian Schar alongside Maguire maybe? Where as many of our players who aren't in our first 11 would probably be first choice Newcastle (Romero, Smalling, Jones? Dalot, Matic, Lingard, Mata, Pereira? Ighalo. And that's not including players like Williams and Greenwood who are kids in their first season in the first team) . So for Newcastle to have a better first 11 let alone squad they are going to need 10-18 new players. So we can assume that they are unlikely to have a squad to match ours for at least 2-3 years.

FFP rules have actually restricted the ability to take a middle of the road club and make them a huge club with nothing but deep pockets. Clubs are restricted to how much they can increase the wage bill and how much they can spend each year. So its a much longer process now then it was for the likes of Chelsea, PSG and Man City.

I have no doubt that if the deal goes through that the new owners will make Newcastle a force, but it will take longer with them than it did for other clubs previously.

Besides, turning over an entire squad and getting all the new players to gel and settle in a new part of the country or a new country entirely isn't straight forward.

I love Newcastle, spent a year living there and enjoyed it massively. Yet they will have the same struggles that all northern teams have when recruiting, its not Monaco, Paris, London, Barcelona, Milan etc. It isn't an area awash with money with great things to do if you are a millionaire.

So to get top players to sign they will have to convince them to move to a club that historically haven't won much, have little to no "Brand" appeal, doesn't have the draw of somewhere like London, won't be able to offer UCL or even Europa league football, depending on if/ how the season pans out might not even be a EPL club next season (although unlikely to be relegated now), while also not able to just bankroll massive wages to every player they sign if they are going to stay within FFP. To all of that then add an unusual transfer window where no one knows quite how it will play out. While some clubs might need to sell to balance the books, other clubs might be reluctant due to an inability to replace players.

In essence a lot of pieces of the puzzle need to fall into place for Newcastle to make the jump from relegation candidate to top four challengers. They will also need to over take clubs like Arsenal, Everton, Spurs and Wolves before they start to challenge us, Chelsea and Leicester for a top four spot.

So no I don't think Newcastle will finish above us in either of the next two seasons.

5.) 07 May 2020
07 May 2020 11:33:32
Just look at Everton and what they have spent in the last 2-3 seasons. It has to be the right player and the right fit which is where United have been going wrong since Fergie left. I'm still not 100% convinced by Ole but i do like the players he's brought in so far and it looks like he is trying to get the right type of players in that want to play for united.

6.) 07 May 2020
07 May 2020 12:19:35
If I stake 9-27-45-69-18 will I win the national lottery?

7.) 07 May 2020
07 May 2020 13:24:48
Shappy, your "how many players would get into X, Y and Z team is a nonsense argument and takes away the importance of having a good coach.

Let's play that game with Sheffield United and see how many of their players get into the United Team? Yet if they win their game in hand they go above us?

We bought one of Leicesters best players in the summer and they havnt missed a beat. With a very good coach and talented players are sitting comfortably ahead of us.

Even go back 2/ 3 years and do your little squad game with Liverpool. You probably would have argued a few United players who would get into that Liverpool team, right now though, not one player would. That is the difference of having a proper football manager in charge. Having a proper football coach.

Ole has done very little being in charge the last 18 months. We have a squad full of talented players that are struggling to compete with teams like Leicester, Sheffield United and even Wolves. Teams being greater than the sum of their parts.

If you think Ole is doing well. Imagine what a modern progressive thinking coach could do with these players and our budget.

Redman is being a bit hyperbolic but make no bones about it, we're nearly a decade without a league win and another one is nowhere in sight. If Newcastle get these owners in and they do half as good as City did and putting a plan in place, we will move down the pecking order yet again and kids in 10 years will grow up wanting to play at St James park and not Old Trafford.

8.) 07 May 2020
07 May 2020 13:58:03
Good post mumbles.

9.) 07 May 2020
07 May 2020 15:11:53
Top post mumbles.

10.) 07 May 2020
07 May 2020 16:04:34
Mumbles, while a great coach can improve a team to be more than the sum of their parts, these coaches are few and far between.

While Nuno at Wolves has worked wonders and built a very good side they have finished below us in the last two seasons. Even when we have been disjointed and inconsistent.

I would hold off on considering Sheffield United a top side, often a side comes up from the Championship and do far better than most expect in their first season only to drop down the table in their second or third seasons after the EPL teams have figured them out. Think of Wigan under Paul Jewell, or Bournemouth under Eddie Howe. Teams that finished in the top half in their first season only to be unable to repeat the feat. I wouldn't bet against Leeds with Biesla will doing it next season.

Like I said I expect Newcastle to become a force if the deal for the new owners goes through. Yet I don't think that will happen next season or the year after. But it's not as cut and dried that new owners means instant success.

As for our manager, I agree that there are better managers out there. The best two managers in the world at the moment are Klopp and Pep. So whichever manager we decide to replace Ole with will at best only be the third best manager in the league with at best the 3rd or 4th best squad in the league. Which means that is probably the highest we can get at the current time. Pochettino, Allegri, Ancelotti etc are unlikely to become better managers than Klopp and Pep. So hiring them would not be a step forward, or at least not a big enough one.

If we are going to over take City and Liverpool we need a young hungry up and coming manager who will grow to become a better manager than Klopp and Pep. However, it isn't as easy to just spot these managers. We have tried the "CV" route with LvG and Mourinho and neither could raise us to compete with City and Liverpool. We need to try something different, yet I feel our fans won't let a younger manager have the time to grow and develop.

11.) 07 May 2020
07 May 2020 16:30:35
Redman just have patience dear Sir. Your dream of seeing Man United being coached by someone other than Ole will soon be a reality. If I had a choice I would choose a novice as our new coach/ manager, over an experienced one. Someone who is hungry to achieve, modern and progressive in thinking like most posters put it. Someone who hasn't won anything but has a clear ideology as to how the game should be played and be given the time to implement it. Personally I wouldn't want Poch to be manager of Man United. He had the best Spurs side ever assembled and though he had them challenging couldn't get them over the line. Not even in the cup competitions. It's only a matter of time fans would get tired of being a nearly club. Poch comes across as a coach who struggles with competition and is better off being a manager in a league where one or two teams dominate so he doesn't have much pressure on him. Just my opinion ofcourse.

12.) 07 May 2020
07 May 2020 17:23:03
Let's play the game of where is Solksjaer in the worldwide manager rankings? Top 10? Top 50? Number 78?

I'd say Solksjaer doesn't even rank because he's done diddly squat as a manager. His record is appalling.

Then let's compare that with where Utd want to be in the world's top team rankings. Top 5? Top 10?

I'd say top 10 with Madrid, City, Liverpool, Juve, Barca, Bayern, PSG and a couple of others.

So why can't we get a top 10 manager to match our ambitions of being a top 10 club? Why do we have to put up with a managerial nobody who has been rubbish?

13.) 07 May 2020
07 May 2020 17:42:02
So the logic here shappy is because we can't get Klopp or Pep, we might as well stick with Ole?

Hiring Poch, Allegro or Ancelotti would not be a step forward? FML, that has to be one of the most absurd takes I've ever read on this site 😂.

14.) 07 May 2020
07 May 2020 18:06:51
No Angel, you've missed my point. So I'll be explicit with it.
What I am saying is there isn't a manager available who will be able to lift us any higher than third over the next couple of seasons unless one or both of Klopp and Pep either leave or implode.

MancMan, where would you rank Jose or LvG? Both failed and didn't get us to where we wanted to be.

It's not as simple as just hiring any manager we want. Some don't want to come to us, others aren't available, while others are a terrible fit for our club either stylistically or practically with the behind the scene set up.

What we need is a clear vision and long term plan. Then hire a manager who fits that vision when the right moment arises.

We have tried sacking managers and hiring whoever is available at the time. Where has it got us?

Ole might not be the right long term option, but we need to have the plan in place before we move on from Ole.

Currently, Ole has changed the atmosphere around the club, moved on players who aren't good enough, giving young players a chance, and improved most of our players. Why sack him?

15.) 07 May 2020
07 May 2020 18:15:36
So Newcastle might be the new noisy not so near neighbours. I remember people saying City would do nothing and are probably the same people saying Newcastle won’t either. Newcastle may not get taken over, may not appoint a decent manager but if they get taken over I would bet they or their owners will have more ambition than ours.
The days gone by we laughed as City got money, flung it around but Newcastle are a one club City, have something to offer. Yet again our arrogance comes out, like when City were taken over.
Is Ole Gunnar Solskjaer the sign of ambition? Would Newcastle look to appoint him if they could? We are drifting along naive in our view of the world. Ole this Ole that, name is embroidered into the shirt you know, yet it feels more like that person at work, been there years does a good job, nothing outstanding. That is where we are. We still lack a direction, still can’t see the world has moved on from SAF which is why we are where we are, why no one dismissed the Newcastle question because that is what we have become comparable to a side who may well get ahead of us when money is no object and owners ambition is to win the league not to ensure the shareholders are happy with the dividend.
Wake up people, SAF days are gone, stop thinking someone can bring them back just like they were. I thought that after Busby, it cost us years yet I learnt from it and we must if we want to move on.
The clock will tick, how will you feel when it hits 10? I remember 77 very well, 10 years from a league win, enjoyable cup but there was another 16 to wait for the real prize. 10 is in sight but we just ignore reality, the reality of drifting along like we did when Sexton arrived and that is about where we are now.

16.) 07 May 2020
07 May 2020 18:39:01
Come off it Shappy. We're Manchester United. We shouldn't be a club with training wheels on for managers with poor records. As Angelred says, your argument is very flawed.

As ed002 has alluded to, we do things in an amateurish way. The footballing world doesn't care about the goal Ole scored in 99. From top to bottom we are consistently making poor choices. But a lot of that can change with the right coach.

You said it yourself. There are better managers out there but you don't want them because what's the point, Pep and Klopp are better? Imagine using that logic on any other part of the club and expecting to succeed.

Do we want to be the best or not?

17.) 07 May 2020
07 May 2020 19:11:25
St Lucia

Patience, I supported in every one of those 26 years without a title so Know patience is perhaps overrated but understood. We tried inexperienced with McGuiness, Moyes and Ole, didn’t work out. My first choice would be Simeone, the club needs an electric shock in the you know where.

18.) 07 May 2020
07 May 2020 21:13:03
If the newcastle sale goes ahead, with incomes of lots of teams being hit or about to be hit I'd have thought the transfer market would be more of a buyers market than it has been for a long time .

Theres scope for rapid improvement at newcastle and I wouldn't have thought they see arsenal spurs or utd beyond there reach if something akin to what happened at city occurs . It's difficult to know just how big their potential new owners are thinking but you don't have to be too old to remember city and paris very different to what they are now .

Spending money duznt mean youl have success as someone pointed out about everton and we ourselves are a good example of big outlays with little rewards. But if you spend money wisely it duznt half help lift teams to bigger and better things .

19.) 07 May 2020
07 May 2020 23:40:51
Shappy, Lvg and Mourino were has beens when they joined utd which they abley demonstrated. So in answer to your question they both rated very low down in the manager rankings.

I just don't understand why people don't want a really good manager to match what should be the clubs ambitions.

20.) 08 May 2020
08 May 2020 00:25:44
I don’t post on here very much, but this one peaked my interest (no doubt the drinks that prefaced this helped as well) .
I hope everyone is well and, as always, thank you to the Ed’s for the expert insight. Not a day goes past I don’t read the site.

First off, I’ll admit that I wasn’t enthralled when Ole was given the job full time. While being a club legend and someone who clearly understands the club and it’s ethos, I was skeptical of his (lack of) managerial experience and felt it was a mistake to give him the post on a long term basis and the whole thing stank of a knee-jerk reaction to some media pressure from some club legends.

I’m a fan of Pochettino. I like the way his teams play and I’ve been impressed by the work he’s done with the squads he’s been given. ‘Given’ being the operative word in that sentence. People can hound his record all they want, and point to his lack of silverware until the cows come home, but we have yet to see the man given an opportunity to invest properly in a squad. So if he were to get the Newcastle job, it would be interesting to see the outcome as I believe we’ll truly see what he can do when given the freedom to build his squad on his terms.

Personally, if I HAD to replace Ole with anyone, right now my pick would be Ten Hag from Ajax. I have loved watching the football he plays and he’s got experience of winning titles and the players seem to love playing for him.

All that being said. why are we worrying or even talking about what’s going on over at Newcastle? The takeover may go through, it may not but ultimately, who cares? And why?!

To focus on the situation over there seems an extremely reactionary attitude and not a healthy one at that. Yes, you may point towards the fact that they have an opportunity to invest well and build themselves back up to a force in football once again, but why is that any of our concern? We can only have an impact of what goes on at Manchester United and so I feel the club’s best recourse would be to identify our weaknesses, invest in those areas to make US a better TEAM.

Last time the club made a knee-jerk decision based on what what other clubs were doing, we ended up with Alexis Sanchez.

Sorry, this is turning into the essay I hoping to avoid. I just believe that as a club we need to spend more time looking at our own situation and addressing the issues we have in order to make us into title challengers again, as opposed to looking at what others are doing.

Especially a team fighting relegation.

21.) 08 May 2020
08 May 2020 08:21:32
its getting ridiculous it really is.

22.) 08 May 2020
08 May 2020 10:59:49
Shappy

I am glad you think there are better managers out there. However, you think hiring them would not be a step forward, or at least not a big enough one? So we stick with what we have even if he is the 125th best manager.

We have not tried the "CV" route properly. LvG’S was out of date and we didn’t support Mourinho, who did have the CV, in the transfer market, so your CV argument is fatally flawed. S and neither could raise us to . We need to try something different, I agree, how about a manager with a proper CV who develops youth, attracts players, demands respect, like Simeone.

I just think the can’t get anyone better argument is lame and inaccurate, watching the club drift on. Action is needed. The original question was about Newcastle and I don’t think they would finish above us next season, but if we drift with Ole, the season after will be game on.

23.) 08 May 2020
08 May 2020 12:12:10
I agree with you Redman although I think you missed out a key ingredient which is that we need a manager who will play attractive, attacking football. Simeone is not that manager.

Maybe we should try to learn from history and look at what Fergie was when he arrived at Utd. Who is the next Fergie? Unitedinred mentions Ten Hag. Is it him? It's definately not Solksjaer.

24.) 08 May 2020
08 May 2020 12:33:13
MancMan

It has to be the right setting for a manager. Is Ten Hag able to come in in the shambles we are now and shake it up? That is my concern. I don’t know his MO well enough but I know Simeone will drive us forward with his own power of personality and will. That was a key element of what SAF brought and what drove his teams on. It needs change, a strategy and a plan and a real character to push the club forward, someone with the strength of personality to do it, with experience in a big league, who understands how big clubs operate in those big leagues.

25.) 08 May 2020
08 May 2020 13:43:15
Red Man, I think you keep falling into the same trap. You wanted Mourinho because he had a good CV and he had the mentality to shake things up and get the club back on track. You now want Simeone for the same reasons. Ignoring the fact that Atletico have gotten steadily worse over the past 3 years. I don't think Simeone can do what you hope he can.

Firstly, he doesn't speak English which is a huge stumbling block for any manager coming in to manage in England.

However, for me the major flaw in your plan is expecting an employee with two or three levels of management ABOVE them to be able to come in and change the course of the club.

If you think Ed Woodward, the other board members or the owners are going to be whipped into line by a manager than you are massively mistaken.

If you rock the boat then you are the first one going overboard, don't believe me then ask LvG or Mourinho.

We have fallen into this idea of replacing Sir Alex, or Sir Matt. Managers who were true figure heads of the club, managers who dictated the direction of the club.

When Sir Alex retired the club was 20 years out of date with modern football. A behemoth of a club set up to work being run by Sir Alex.

The truth is football has moved on. Managers have a say in transfers but the financial implications mean you need experts sorting out transfers. Scouting isn't as simple as someone you trust gives you a call and recommends a lad they saw having a kick about in the local park. Sports science and analysis has developed into a huge monster of it own.

Football has seen a massive upscaling over the past 30 years, and with it the football landscape has changed dramatically.

The best club's have experts in every area. The best football financial experts handing the finances. The top sports scientists, doctors and football analysts managing the scouting and health of the players, multiple coaches using cutting edge training techniques.

The manager is now really a head coach, keep the players in line, set the tactics and work with people from other departments without the ability to dictate to them. Old school manager tasks are now the job of directors of football.

When our club is accused of acting like amateurs it is because they do not have the right set up behind the scenes. They don't have the right people in the right places making the right decisions. No clear structure, everyone sticking their oar in to areas that should not be part of their working remit.

Until that changes every manager is ultimately doomed to failure. The best we can hope for is a manager who keeps the squad happy, plays good football and develops our promising young players.

All things I feel Ole does pretty well. Clearly he isn't the long term answer, but we have tried the sack a manager every two years and it has given us an unbalanced squad as each manager tries to shape it in their own image, limited success and just stagnation/ regression.

You can't build a house until the foundations are laid down, to do so means your house will only fall down around your ears.

26.) 08 May 2020
08 May 2020 14:00:55
Looking forward to next season, I think we will do well.

27.) 08 May 2020
08 May 2020 14:29:01
You make a lot of really good points there Shappy. When I talk about the next Fergie, I'm talking about about the football side of things. I don't care whether the manager is on first name terms with the tea lady or is interesting in the politics of running the club.

When Fergie joined United he was young and had shown the ability to manage at a top level and win things.

So when I say I want the next Fergie, I mean someone who can spot a good player, build a team, is tactically astute, can innovate and can motivate his teams. For the cherry on top I want a manager who sets his teams up to attack and win football matches.

Perhaps the modern Fergie is Klopp, so maybe rather than asking who is the next Fergie, maybe I should be asking who is the next Klopp?

My knowledge of managers isn't nearly as good as some on this site but I do know it isn't Solksjaer so why persist with him? Why not identify the next Fergie/ Klopp and go all out for them?

28.) 08 May 2020
08 May 2020 14:48:26
MancMan, That is the thing I'm saying. You've put down spot a player, but then that role of the scouting department.

A manager needs to be tactically astute, a good motivator, and be able to maintain balance within the squad. In a wider context their style of play should suit the clubs vision and be in sync with the club so that the player at the club and the player signed by the club suit the managers ideals as well as the clubs.

My point is that until the club have a vision, has the right people in the right places then whoever we bring in as a manager is destined to fail.

It's like asking a builder to build you a house, but you don't have any plans. They will build you a house, but probably not the one you want.

29.) 08 May 2020
08 May 2020 14:53:30
Shappy

I don’t write essays, but “the best we can hope for”, “things I feel Ole does really well”, say to me you don’t get Manchester United, you get the sentiment of Ole.

I can’t disagree with Mancman too much, the next Klopp would be interesting, but Klopp does lack something. I can’t put my finger on it, maybe he doesn’t exude calm at key moments and that transmits around, but with that team why have they not done better in domestic cups. This season they perhaps should have challenged in more than just the league. He has done well, but SAF wasn’t perfect either.

I get some just want to support Ole, but it is wallowing in nostalgia. Saying he isn’t the long term answer means he isn’t the answer, stop dithering.

30.) 08 May 2020
08 May 2020 18:16:30
Maybe Klopp is that great but it's not always possible to challenge in everything.

We complete in 4 tournaments a year, Sir Alex was in charge for 26 years, so that's 104 trophies he could have won at least (without including things like the super cup or the world club cup) . Which means he missed out on around 75% of the trophies he could have won.

Klopp this year will win 1 out of the 4 main titles. Same rate at Sir Alex. Although that is much easier to do over a short period, doing it over 26 years is a whole different matter.

Few if any will combine Sir Alex's winning record over a sustained period with the staying power of sticking at one club.

But it's horses for courses. Just like how some players could be successful in any era the majority wouldn't achieve what they have in another era. Same for managers. Would Busby, Shankley and Clough be great managers in the modern era? Could Pep have been a success 60 years ago?

Klopp is doing what he is doing in this era. And I don't think there is a sane United fan who wouldn't rather have signed Klopp when we got Moyes in hindsight.

31.) 08 May 2020
08 May 2020 20:42:14
Shappy

I wanted Klopp to replace Moyes and said so on here

Will you acknowledge that they need to replace Ole?

32.) 11 May 2020
11 May 2020 14:08:11
Redman. I think Shappy just kind of did but with the caveat that there is no point wasting a good manager in the current set up. I sort of agree with him.