15 Nov 2020 10:25:41
I read an interesting article this morning and it makes sense of our issues about not winning against teams who don't leave space, who sit back. This season we have taken shots from distance more than any other team, 33% of our shots have been taken from outside the box, none successfully.

The article suggests this could be due to being desperate to score, shooting at first sight, not willing to patiently pass and move in case a better opening never materialises.
The stat they say, points at a team running out of ideas, devoid of alternatives, or simply lacking direction. It suggests that with no strategy to break down well-organised defences, a team will be easily stifled. We will remain two dimensional in attack unless we develop a strategy.

Never really noticed the shooting from distance but many of us have said we have no plan, or pattern, that there is no clear way of playing against teams that deny us space. I posted a while back about how City manipulated the opposition full backs to get behind them and it worked. I haven't seen us have any strategy apart from breaking quickly when there is space.

1.) 15 Nov 2020
15 Nov 2020 11:41:06
I think part of the reason we have had so many shots from distance is simply our first choice front three would be Rashford, Martial and Greenwood. Three natural strikers who's first instinct would be to shoot rather than look for someone to pass to.

Add to that we have both Pogba and Bruno in midfield, two players who are quick to pull the trigger if given half a sight on goal. Players who are likely to have as many goals as assists come the ned of the season. Also Fred has a tendency to shoot whenever he gets anywhere near the box.

We don't have too many players who are more interested in creating a goal scoring chance as opposed to finishing a goal scoring chance.

2.) 15 Nov 2020
15 Nov 2020 12:05:53
I would question it, did bruno not score from outside the box in our last game?

3.) 15 Nov 2020
15 Nov 2020 12:36:44
Snappy

Are you not describing a clear lack of coaching in your post?

4.) 15 Nov 2020
15 Nov 2020 12:44:54
Jred

I watched it again and Bruno was inside the box.

5.) 15 Nov 2020
15 Nov 2020 15:49:55
Redman looking at the stats
United have had
1% of shots inside the 6 yard
51% in the 18 yard box
48% ( highest) outside .
Mind you city
5%51%44% aren't much different .
For me 1 thing city are is good in possession and willing to patiently pass.
But to give it some context
United have taken 51% of their shots from within the 18 yard box
City 51%
Liverpool 59%
Chelsea 55%
Its not really a huge difference especially when you look at the number of shots per game .
Need a bit of context.
Personally I'm not sure what % of shots from certain areas tell you?

6.) 15 Nov 2020
15 Nov 2020 16:44:25
Jred

I am not one who bases everything on stats. However, there have been two recent articles which both made sense and matched what we are actually seeing on the pitch. The point today about shooting and the league table on crosses that we were near the bottom of. What we see is the lack of efforts to get behind the opposition and get a cross in, recycling the ball slowly from side to side and likely a shot in frustration.

What both points suggest is what we see, we don’t have a strategy on how to break teams down.

7.) 15 Nov 2020
15 Nov 2020 17:59:08
Redman
Using a stat on what part of the pitch we have taken shots from to judge our strategy is imo, stupid 🙄.

8.) 15 Nov 2020
15 Nov 2020 18:13:03
Redman, crosses have been less because we have strikers not very effective at scoring headers I. The middle. Although martial has recently looked good from crosses, so maybe we need to trust them a bit more now.

In martial, greenwood and rash we have 3 inside forwards. So would expect high level of penalties as teams take them down, and many shots from inside area, but not necessarily 6 yard box.

Our wing play certainly needs to improve for me. Especially balls played across low between the keeper and defense. In rash, martial and Greenwood you would think they would be good at getting back post taps ins, like sterling. Always frustrates me that we don't seem to target that style of goal more.

9.) 15 Nov 2020
15 Nov 2020 19:10:51
Red Man, That depends on whether you think training a footballer to play against their natural instincts is a good idea.

They are strikers and they have a strikers mentality, looking for the way to goal, looking for that shot. That's why they cut in and run into the box looking for a shooting opportunity rather than stay wide looking for a pass. Incidentally them cutting in and running toward goal looking for a shot is probably the reason we get so many penalties as it forces defenders to take action.

So it's swings and roundabouts. You could try and coach them to slow down, look around and try and pick out a pass, but that isn't really playing to their strengths.

10.) 15 Nov 2020
15 Nov 2020 19:22:05
The crossing stat does not surprise me at all, from the eye test you can see we don't have any real sophisticated way of manoeuvring positions where we are cutting the ball back from by line in the same way liverpool and city do.

11.) 15 Nov 2020
15 Nov 2020 21:03:18
Shappy

Who are the management buying to fit into what they are trying to do? Are you saying we should have 11 individuals or a team coordinated? There is a clear issue with teams that sit deep, yet to protect the management you are saying we should let players do what they want, how they feel, that coaching doesn’t matter. Is that really the right way? What is the point in having a coach then?

12.) 15 Nov 2020
15 Nov 2020 21:47:16
Is this really another ole bashing thread.
Based around thd fact 33% of our shots are from outside thd box?
This is really scrapping the barrel imo.

13.) 15 Nov 2020
15 Nov 2020 22:43:38
Jred

Jred, stats you like are ok, but stats you don’t are scraping the barrel.

You have to add things up, an analysis of shots, of crossing but use your eyes and see the issues we have with teams that sit back. It’s an analysis of our play by an independent analyst. Stop burying your head in the sand.

14.) 16 Nov 2020
15 Nov 2020 23:54:26
Redman
As ed1 pointed out stats are useless unless used in the correct manner.
You havd clearly started a thread about us having 33% of our shots from outside the 18 yard box .
So what
There is no context it is ridiculous,

15.) 16 Nov 2020
16 Nov 2020 10:13:55
To break teams down a team has to do the following:-
1.Keep possession
2.Pass forward
3.Have willing runners in the channels
4.Win back position quickly
5.Play successful one-twos in and around the box
6.Have a dominant striker or strikers

Please rate our current team at these skills because I have difficulty with this a lot of the time.

16.) 16 Nov 2020
16 Nov 2020 10:17:25
Red Man, I'm saying its a managers job to get the best out of what he has. This is rarely done by getting players to play to their weaknesses rather than their strengths.

We have read countless posts on here about managers playing square pegs in round holes over the past 7 years.

Are you suggesting Ole would have more success by getting players to play to their weaknesses rather than their strengths?

The issue is the same issue we have had for the last few years, we simply lack enoguh players who are able to play those passes that break down deep teams.

Mata can to an extent, yet he struggles for consistency, while his lack of pace and physicality means that he can be on the periphery of the game unless the team is dominating possession in advanced areas.

Bruno has to an extent helped, but he is the only one who plays regularly who can play those passes. Teams have started to get wise to this and are marking him much tighter, making it harder.

Rashford is one of our best players and playes LW, but plays as a wide forward, scoring more than he'll create.

Greenwood has been our best performer at RW, but he plays in a similar way to Rashford, what we need is someone who offers creativity rather than finishing ability in that position.

Ultimately someone like Sancho. For me the biggest failure at the club is an inability to build a coherent squad that complements each other and works together.

17.) 16 Nov 2020
16 Nov 2020 18:01:26
Jred

The context is with the crossing perspective, it matches what we are watching and results have flagged the issues, unless you have a pair of Ole glasses on.

Shappy

No one is stupid enough to suggest a team plays to its weaknesses. However, Pep and Klopp went into their perspective clubs, knew the style they were going to play, put players in the right places, coached them to play to the selected pattern, bought players to fit that pattern. We have Pogba, Bruno and DvB yet no width, 6 centre halves but no partnerships. Purchasing may not all be down to Ole, but coaching what you have to maximise the play is, and as per the article, we are not getting behind defences. With the players we have we should be able to, to have a pattern that is more sophisticated than pass across the opposition back four incessantly.

18.) 17 Nov 2020
17 Nov 2020 07:45:22
Red Man, both Klopp and Pep bought in 18-20 players to get the team playing their style. So I would disagree strongly with the assumption that they "coached" the players they had to play the style they wanted.

Pep at City was able to bring in a lot of players quickly which meant he was better able to challenge sooner rather than later. Klopp had to work to a tighter budget overall and it took a couple of seasons longer for him to challenge for the league.

19.) 17 Nov 2020
17 Nov 2020 08:13:05
Shappy

Did Pep and Klopp quickly implement a pattern/ style that you knew they would, the effective style that had and has won them major prizes? In the 2 years so far what is our style/ pattern to enable us to get in behind teams and break them down?

The point is that we have no obvious pattern or plan to get behind defences unless they give us lots of space. We have 4 creative players at least yet it doesn’t happen. Whether it be inane passing across defences, shooting from distance, lack of crosses, results against teams who deny us space, what we can see from the naked eye, we haven’t defined a methodology and we should have seen that by now.