10 Dec 2020 14:08:38
This is the squad Klopp took over at Liverpool in 2015:

Mignolet, Bogdan, Clyne, Flanagan, Jose Enrique, Moreno, Caulker, Lovren, Kolo Toure, Gomez, Sakho, Thiago Ilori, Henderson, Milner, Allen, Can, Ibe, Coutinho, Lucas, Lallana, Firmino, Benteke, Origi and Ings.

Gerrard and Sterling had just left. There were some players there with good potential, they had one really world class player in Coutinho, while the rest are mostly good professionals.

Now looking at our squad:

DDG, Henderson, AWB, Williams, Lindelof, Maguire, Jones, Rojo, Bailly, Tuanzebe, Shaw, Telles, Matic, Fred, McTominay, DvdB, Pogba, Bruno, Mata, Lingard, Andreas Pereira, James, Rashford, Martial, Cavani and Greenood.

Is there a huge difference?
Liverpool had one world class out field player in Coutinho, while we arguably rely just as heavily on Bruno. They had a few young players in defence with potential such as Clyne and Gomez, while we have AWB and Tuanzebe. But the rest of both theirs and our defence is fairly average. They had young players who they could build their next side around in Henderson, Allen, Can, Ibe, Lallana, Firmino and Origi. While we have McTominay, Donny, James, Rashford and Greenwood.

The thing with young players is some step up and prove their worth, while others fall away and never reach their full potential. There are many reasons for why that might happen, bad luck with injuries, poor attitude, too easily distracted, lack of faith from the manager, no pathway into the team etc etc. Even Good managers like Klopp and Pep see more young players not make it than do. Which is the risk when we look at our squad and see a lot of young players and hang our hope on them all making it.

Like with that Liverpool squad they had several players who just weren't good enough, players like Jose Enrique, Moreno, Caulker, Kolo Toure, Sakho, Benteke etc. Just like we have Jones, Rojo, Bailly, Lingard etc.
Then you have some who probably aren't good enough to be first choice long term but add something as part of a squad until you can sign better players. Players like Lovren, Lucas, Can, Allen, Lallana. While we have players like Lindelof, Maguire, Shaw, Fred and Martial who probably fit into the same category. Not bad players, but not what you need starting every week if you are to win the league.

It took Klopp 5 years to win the title with that Liverpool squad, so how realistic is it that whoever ends up the next United manager can win the league in less time than it took Klopp with a similar squad.

The reality of our situation is we are a 3-5 year project to ship out those who aren't good enough, during that time several of our older players will need replacing (Matic, Mata and Cavani), we have a lot of young players who are 2-4 years away from being top players if they make it as top players.

If we are to win the league how many of our current squad do you think will be a key first 11 player in that title winning team. At the moment the only ones I'd be comfortable in say that of are Henderson, AWB, Donny, Bruno and Rashford. The rest are either too far away in their development to say with a level of confidence that they will become a top player, or just not of the required quality to be a first-choice player in a title winning side. So, I can name 5 players, and of that five I would say four of them are dependent on the next manager being able to continue their upward trajectory and get the best out of them (Henderson, AWB, Donny and Rashford) .

So I make that at least 6 first choice players need to be signed, while we need a solid squad as well, which can either come from signings or from youngsters stepping up. When we take of the rose tinted glasses and stare at our squad in the cold light of day we can see truly how far we are off of top spot.


1.) 10 Dec 2020
10 Dec 2020 14:42:08
Why aren't you saying that Klopp collected 97 points in his third full season and says that he won the league at his fifth season? What about the Europa League final and Champions League final? You bother only for stuffs that suits your point.
At which point Maguire is not good for a title winning side? I remember you had never a problem with his transfer and at the time you made some posts with some points on why he is not that bad and if we payed less money he would be a good signing etc. Welcome to reality if you think that he is not good enough.
The measure is not when Klopp won th Premier nor when SAF the Premier. that's only oles fans points because suits them. The measure is never another case of manager because the circumstances are very different and you can make what's best for you and you can't affect other teams. So, for example, Klopp would have won the League in his third full year if City were more human. So, if you want to compare two cases of managers, compare what they have done for their teams and not only what and when they won a trophy.
I know what Klopp did : winning the league or not in his third season he was ready to compete and if we are honest he had his team playing like it was the best team in the league and world.


2.) 10 Dec 2020
10 Dec 2020 14:48:34
This has been the song, atleast a certain number of players to compete since Fergie retired.

Many number of players have been brought in the last 6/ 7 years, some being very expensive, earning astronomical salaries and many have left. Coaches sacked and hired but still no consistence.

Utd lacks clear plans and right personnel to run the club from the top to coaching staff. If this can't be solved no matter the number of players signed.

The club can still bring in 2 Harry Maguire, 1 pogba, 2 Antony Martial and 1 Daniel James to make it 6 signings.


3.) 10 Dec 2020
10 Dec 2020 14:57:37
Okay so let's say bruno = coutinho for comparisons sake which is quite generous considering bruno was bought for £60m

Then all that liverpools squad is missing from the time klopp took over is the following:

1.) Worlds highest paid goalkeeper = De Gea
2.) £100m pounds worth of full back talent = AWB, Shaw and Telles
3.) Worlds most expensive defender = Harry HGV Maguire at £80m
4.) Worlds most Expensive midfielder = paul pogba £90m
5.) Fred cost £50m
6.) 2 of the most exciting young forwards in world football in rashford and greenwood.
7.) Add in vdb, lindelof, martial, cavani and mata and that another £150m worth of talent.

This is a joke of a comparison in terms of what both managers has to work with and that's before you consider that klopp had the likes of that squad playing a clear pressing system and building up play from the back which is much harder to instil than oles counter attack and hope for the best footballing philosophy.


4.) 10 Dec 2020
10 Dec 2020 15:23:21
the difference is if klop had this squad we would be playing a lot better. not looking like strangers that do not know what they are doing. he is simply a better manager.


5.) 10 Dec 2020
10 Dec 2020 15:45:04
If the OP assumption is it would take the next manager of United five years to win the league, the same as Klopp, it raises some points of interest.
1) That indicates that the last two years of cultural reboot nonsense, the players bought at vast cost were all wrong, the Solskjaer two year or whenever it finally finishes, reign, was a total waste and we have to start again. It indicates nothing towards the five year plan has been done, the five years a proper manager will need to sort out all the mess left by Woodward, Ole and co, only starts then. Glad that is now clear for everyone.
2) The Klopp comparison is interesting. The man was an existing winner, built Dortmund as challengers, played wonderful football, who had a clear plan from the beginning, at last there is an acknowledgement this is the sort of manager United need and should have.
3) Five years for someone as good as Klopp, does not mean Ole needs five, he might never do it.

Personally I think we are three good players and a proper manager. It also depends when we change manager. If it is now, he can start work and be ready for the next summer window, I would say a challenge could start next season, with a better chance the season after. If we blunder along until Spring before jettisoning the useless Norwegian, as we did with Moyes and LVG, put it back another season beyond next, the next manager will need next season to get going and pick up the mess.

Lastly, the keep Ole option as he is going to win it next season. Learn to say, “next year will be our year”, stop talking hallucinogenics, stay healthy, apply for cryogenic freezing to be able to be around for the next title.


6.) 10 Dec 2020
10 Dec 2020 15:51:08
Shappy, like you mate but this is a load of bolloxology.

Klopp went from 60 points in 2016 with a Europa League final, to 76 in 2017, 75 in 2018 and a Champions League final. Following year a champions League with with 97 points and last year a premier League win. I mean he was performing and in contention every year, consistently.

I feel like this is another poor ole post, oh how hard a job it is at untied.


7.) 10 Dec 2020
10 Dec 2020 16:23:18
Angel

Agree. Subliminal messaging, keep putting it in our minds that it is such a terrible situation, that Ole has no chance, needs a top manager with five years to sort it out. He would have succeeded, if only given the players he wanted, more time, more understanding from the fans. But, like I said, Shappy, even if he didn’t realise it, just confirmed we wasted two years, so far, with Ole,


8.) 10 Dec 2020
10 Dec 2020 16:42:52
Herrera, Klopp took over Liverpool on the 8th October 2015, Liverpool had played 8 league games at that point. If we replaced Ole now would people write off the rest of this season and only start counting what they achieved from the start of next season?
Klopp had 4 summer transfer windows before he won the league, in which he sold Mignolet, Bogdan, Clyne, Flanagan, Jose Enrique, Moreno, Caulker, Lovren, Kolo Toure, Sakho, Thiago Ilori, Allen, Can, Ibe, Coutinho, Lucas, Lallana, Benteke, and Ings. Nineteen of his original squad.
While he signed Grujic, Mane, Karius, Matip, Klavan, Manninger. Wijnaldum, Salah, Solanke, Robertson, AOC, VvD, Keita, Fabinho, Shaqiri, Alisson, Minamino and Lonergan as well as a few youth players before he won the league, adding Thiago, Jota and Tsimikas this summer. So, Klopp sold 19 players of his original squad and bought 18 players before he won the league, so I think my point stands.

As for Maguire I was pretty against signing him when we were first linked. After he signed, while not convinced I felt the need to support him as a Manchester United player and hoped he would step up and develop his game. I think he has been a better leader than I thought he was. But his limitations still remain the same. He has made around 50 appearances for the club now and he has shown no development as a player, he hasn’t improved at all since he signed. He is still a decent player, but he is not the cornerstone defender a title winning side needs, more of a good squad player in a title winning side. The problem is that having spent 80-85m on him he has to start.

This post is not a post in defence of Ole, very clearly a better manager would have this side playing better football. While recently after the Leipzig game I posted on here that it is clear Ole isn’t learning quickly enough and he has taken this side as far as he can.

This post is exploring the reality of where this squad is and how quickly we can realistically expect to be challenging for the title (end the season either as champions or within a few points of the winners) . For me finishing second, 25 points behind the winners is not a title challenge.

I think those people who think a new manager and 2 or 3 good signings will result in a serious title challenge are deluding themselves and setting themselves up for disappointment and quickly turning on our next manager.

We have a squad with very few winners in it, with very few leaders, with little top-level experience (UCL, title challenges), we have a handful of players which could become the nucleus of the next title winning side, several of whom will need to reach their potential to be part of that. The players we have are courtesy of 5 different managers with very different styles and tactical approaches. As such they don’t all work ideally together in a cohesive way. AWB and Alex Telles for example are almost polar opposites in approaches to their position. So there are three choices, either find a system with one offensive and one defensive full back, or play offensive full backs and either coach AWB (if possible) to be more offensive or buy a new RB, or play defensive full backs and coach Telles to be defensive or buy a new LB. Whichever option you choose requires either time to retrain a player or money to buy a new player more suitable. This problem is repeated all over the pitch and is a big part of the reason for a lack of a cohesive style. As every time you have to make a change to the starting 11 your options are either adapt the tactics to suit the player coming in or get the player to play in a way that might not suit their skillset. Either way it is a square peg for a round hole and plays a big part in a lack of consistency with the team. It’s consistency that wins titles, and we just can’t get that with this team.

We saw a distinct style with Klopp from day one at Liverpool, his approach was to make players adapt to the system regardless of whether it worked well with their skillset. Which is why in his first few years he had hugely inconsistent results, when he had his first 11 on the pitch, they could beat anyone. However, the moment he had to rest players, the players coming in were forced to play in a way that didn’t really suit them and the whole team struggled for consistency as a result. It was only when Klopp had 18-20 players who all suited his style that Liverpool became consistent enough to launch a serious title challenge.


9.) 10 Dec 2020
10 Dec 2020 17:00:06
DSG, the fees paid are not relevant. Liverpool paid 30m for Mane, 44m for Salah and 45m for Jota, we paid 50m for Martial. They paid 10m for Robertson while we paid 35m for Shaw. They paid 28m for Thiago while we paid 50m for Fred. Fees paid are not relevant to the skills and the talent of the players signed. All of Liverpool’s signings have been bought to fit within a clear system, and as such they have adapted quickly and improved. Just because we spent a lot of money that doesn’t mean we got value for that money.

You say we spent 50m of Fred, 80m on Maguire and 90m on Pogba. Which of those players do you see as being good enough to be a key player in a title winning side.

DDG might be the highest paid keeper, but is he the best keeper in the league? Is he the best keeper at United?

While Greenwood and Rashford might be exciting forwards, they haven’t reached their potential yet, they could at any point stagnate and go backwards. Remember when Dele Alli was the most exciting young English midfielder in the country? There are rumours around Greenwood at the moment that might suggest he could go off the rails. So young players no matter how talented are a sure thing.

The cost of the players is immaterial, it is the quality of them and their ability to fit into a team and a style that is cohesive and gets the best out of all the players in that system.

Klopp had to buy practically a whole new squad to do that at Liverpool, and he and Liverpool have done a brilliant job in doing so. Anyone coming into United will likely have to do the same, so a 3-4 year timescale is the minimum we should be looking at for that to bare fruits. For that to happen, everyone at the club will need to be pulling in the same direction, united in thought, desire and behind the same vision with a solid plan. Then if they make 90% of the decisions right then we might be in a position to challenge for the title in 3-4 years time.


10.) 10 Dec 2020
10 Dec 2020 17:23:40
Red Man, I think the club needed "healing" after the toxic atmosphere caused by Jose Mourinho. I had hoped that Ole would learn and adapt on the job. Just as Zidane did at Real Madrid. Sadly he hasn't and he isn't improving. As such the past year or so has been a waste. In hindsight the original plan of Ole as interim until the summer then bring in the long term manager would have been a better option. Sadly at the time Ole had done so well in his first few games it became hard for the club not to cave in and hire him full time. We have seen this time and again with the board not having the balls to see something through.

I've admitted Ole has taken us as far as he can, and we now need to bring in the next manager as soon as possible. But first we need a plan, and not one written on the back of a beer matt.

Angel, Klopp finished 8th, 4th, 4th, 2nd and 1st. That is three years without a title challenge. Most on here called for Ole's head after he finished 3rd in his first full season. Do United fans have the patience to see a full scale reset even if it means finishing a couple of years outside the top four?
As for cup runs, in my view good fortune is as important as having a great team. Rarely does the best side actually win the cup.


11.) 10 Dec 2020
10 Dec 2020 17:32:57
Its deja vu. I think we made the same conversation again. So all that matters is the comparison with Klopp and because he won the league in fifth year (as you says) that's the measure.
Lets go again (your way) counting calendar years. let's forger his first season with the Europa League final, let's say he was lucky opponents weren't great etc.
After two and half calendar years he took his team in a Champions League final. And it was not lucky, his team "was" there, was and played like a Champions League finalist. We could all see it. Which that means that at the start of this season (2017-2018) everything was in place to succeed. So that's one and a half year, let's say two.
It took Klopp two years to create a team capable of competing and at the same time playing good attacking football and after two and a half years they were playing a well deserved Champions League final. Although they had little problems and some inconsistency that the fixed and after 3 calendar years they were ready to go in Premier and after 3.5 calentar years they had collected 96 points.
So why do you only refer at the fifth year point and not at others? Ole has 2 calendar years . How far he took us? Are we as good as Liverpool in the same time? Are we ready for a well deserved Champions League final like Liverpool or a semi final? Why must i believe you that it takes 5 years when took Klopp 2 calendar years to make a top team starting from worst position and with less funds?
You are clearly defend Ole. His failure won't be his fault but he couldn't do much better considering that "it needs 5 years to compete like Klopp did" nonsence.


12.) 10 Dec 2020
10 Dec 2020 17:48:12
A club with the resources we have should never be more than 2 years away from a title challenge.

Our problem is our scattergun approach in the transfer market. Just taking Oles signings. Why AWB if you want to play attacking full backs. Why VdB if your preferred midfield is 2 defensive midfielders. Why ostracize Lukaku because you have Rashford, only to sign a 33 year old Cavani?

I think majority can see Ole will never be an elite manager. Two years down the line and there's no real improvement. He's never shown he can manage a team to the light at the end of the tunnel.

2 years for Man Utd to build a title challenge. I wrote in last year when Ole had overseen our worst run in half a century. We need to be like a racehorse that's ready to make a move soon. Pep and Klopps teams have never shown longevity. That style will result in off seasons. I thought those two would still be fighting for the title this season. Maybe next is when the dip happens. If Pochettino/ insert decent manager name here has one year under their belt. I think we could have challenged next year.

Even this year seems to be up for grabs. Is it not too much to ask for that we're in with a shout come March? I know now we're only a few points off top but that will widen.

A manager with a proven record at improving players would have us in the mix very quickly. Whether that would lead to titles who knows. But at least we would be looking up.


13.) 10 Dec 2020
10 Dec 2020 18:01:11
But the context of those premier League finishes and most importantly how they finished the season overall. The points jump in each season, the ability to get them to finals, culminating in a champions League win then the premiership. We are into Oles third year, absolutely no sign of this team getting any better. Way out of his depth and here you are with 4 posts trying to make more and more of a point, what that point is, I give up on trying to understand.

Best you take a step back, say that yes, this job is difficult but Ole should never have got near it, and with the right coach and team, we could be right up there. Every post I read of yours now makes you seem like an Ole apologist. Completely out of step.


14.) 10 Dec 2020
10 Dec 2020 18:03:32
I like Shappys posts, he take his time and are well writen. And ofcourse its not so easy to compete, but nor is so difficult. A top manager and some quality sighnings are enough.


15.) 10 Dec 2020
10 Dec 2020 18:55:29
Ahhh i see the fees are not relevant, neymar and mbappe being the most expensive players in the world, must be rubbish.

Do you not think the fact a 10m player like robertson can become a top left back and salah and mane can become world class forwards has anything to do with klopp coaching them?

If ole was coaching salah and mane, lpool fans would calling for them to be sold and replaced.


16.) 10 Dec 2020
10 Dec 2020 18:57:08
Herrera, Ole has failed on his limited ability to coach and make the right tactical call at the right time.

My post is entirely focused on the future. I'm not focusing on Klopp, but on Liverpool's position when Klopp took over.

My view is that the state of our current squad is similar to the one that Klopp found when he took over at Liverpool in 2015. As such the time frame it took him to get them to winning a title could be comparable.

I think too many United fans are under the false impression that 2 or 3 signings and a new manager and we will be back in the big time. The reality is that this side hasn't been involved in a title race since 2013, in the past 8 years we have only been in the UCL on 4 occasions, this year we went out at the group stages.

Eight years is around half of a professional footballers career. Carrick was a key member of our last title winning side, he turns 40 this season.

This squad and club need a massive overhaul, we won't be in a genuine title race for at least a few years, and that's if we make good decisions over the next couple of years and we get all our ducks in a line.


17.) 10 Dec 2020
10 Dec 2020 19:21:08
This is nowhere near a valid comparison. Shappy I used to enjoy reading your posts but you’ve been talking some nonsense for the past few weeks, maybe due to your confusion over Ole.

Our squad now is far better than what Klopp started with. We’ve been very very lucky to have the youngsters we’ve seen come through in the past two or three years. They have taken over from some poor signings which cost us an absolute fortune. Rashford, Greenwood and McTominay make up over a quarter of our starting 11 and I think most people would like to see Henderson replace DDG. God knows where we would be now if those players were made up with external signings.

With a better manager and coaching team we would be higher up the table than we are now, of that I have no doubt. It’s clear for all to see that we are not being coached well and we have no style of play. If a top manager like Klopp took over this squad we would have a lot to look forward to.

DSG’s response is well put. The only thing I think both teams would have in common is that they are cup teams.


18.) 10 Dec 2020
10 Dec 2020 19:45:13
Literally lost me at comparing ole to klopp. Not fit to lace the mans boots. One is a serial winner who plays great football the other is a failed Cardiff manager who grins like a Cheshire Cat in post match interviews when the teams lost.

No full scale reset is going to happen under ole. And no Avenue of stats and hypotheticals is going to change that.


19.) 10 Dec 2020
10 Dec 2020 19:51:03
This squad needs a massive overhaul? What? 🤣.


20.) 10 Dec 2020
10 Dec 2020 20:27:24
Angel

It is because the players are to blame not Ole!


21.) 10 Dec 2020
10 Dec 2020 21:04:29
Last season you were arguing that greenwood martial rashford were better than mane salah and Bobby .
Now they are only as good as benteke origi and lallana. But that's because your talking out of the other side of your mouth.
Was taa regarded as a wc rb before klopp got him.
Was robertson regarded as one of the best lb in the world before klopp got him.
Was vvd ever nominated for a balon dor before klopp got him.
Was mane the force he was begore klopp got him. Was salah? Was couthino?
He is a great coach and man manager.
Ole is not.
The squad we have now is miles better than what klopp inherited. He made improvements from year 1. Developing year on year month by month. There is no comparison.
We have a squad that can compete.
With a better man manager and coach we can compete.
Klopp is doing with robertson taa gini firmino mane what ferguson did with the likes of neville irwin butt giggs and has them winning cl and league. Great managers can get really good players playing like wc players.


22.) 10 Dec 2020
10 Dec 2020 21:11:05
Shappy if we are in the same position with when Klopp took over Liverpool then that means that 2 years of Ole was for nothing.
You could make the same comparison with Liverpool and Chelsea last year. Chelsea had some good players far from their peak and not many world class players like us. Do you think that they need 4 or 5 years? I think with one more good transfer window and maybe a better manager they are ready to go . Maybe a better coach is enough.
You may not do this on purpose but you defend Ole all the time . No it was not mission impossible for Ole to compete in 2-3 years time.


23.) 10 Dec 2020
10 Dec 2020 21:42:33
Ken

Spot on.


24.) 10 Dec 2020
10 Dec 2020 22:22:00
Ken, shappy makes it up as he goes along.


25.) 11 Dec 2020
11 Dec 2020 00:32:53
The current united squad is a lot better than what klopp took over. I don’t get that argument? Klopp has done a superb job because he stamped his philosophy all over that club and yes he got backing, but each year improved. Shappy I’m sorry but this current group of united players is not awful- there’s some top players and top talents to be developed. Klopp made Henderson a better player and many others- we don’t do that here. I said it earlier today, 3 top signings and we would be competing. A number 9, a centre half and a midfielder in the mould of Saul.


26.) 11 Dec 2020
11 Dec 2020 08:09:59
Your current squad is far superior to what Klopp inherented. Clyne - 24, was not young when Klopp became boss, he was also pretty rubbish and could not defend. AWB is definitely a better player from what I can see. Ibe and Allen, really? Have you seen how Ibe and Allen, they clearly were not good enough and Klopp was pretty ruthless and got rid of them. Also Allen - 25, Henderson - 25, Lallana - 27, Firmino -24, Can - 21, Origi - 20. Only young players there are Can and Origi who did improve under Klopp, Origi was important in the first season, but has been more of a very useful squad player since.

The player who dramatically improved under Klopp was Bobby Firmino, he was terrible under Rodgers. Rodgers was playing him out of position and did not really know where to fit him into the side. Also maybe he was still adapting to the prem while Rodgers was still there.

I think Donny, Rashford and Greenwood are all decent and with a better manager would improve dramatically if they had someone better behind them.

The only similarity that I can see is that you have a team of underperformers who seem unmotivated who seem to be constantly saved by the incredible Fernandez. Before Rodgers left Liverpool had finished 6th the previous season and Liverpool were 10th before he got sacked. You finished 3rd and are currently 6th but can go 4th if you win your game in hand. This shows you definitely have better players than Liverpool did when Klopp took over. I also remember Fergie managed to get by winning games and trophies with rather average players and a few world class players. I think really when you look at the current Liverpool Team, the players that are definitely world class in my eyes are: Van Djik, Allison, Mane, Salah. There are other players that I would include in the world class bracket, but I am a Liverpool fan and biased. But we have lots of solid players who you seem to perform week in and week out, which maybe is what you really lack and a manager who can take them to the next level.

You have lots of solid players you just need a better manager who can motivate them and get them consistent. Yes, you do lack world class players, the only one being Fernandez, but I think it is worth remembering none of the four players came to our club world class. I think Ferguson had a similarly trait to Klopp that he could take solid players and turn them into world class performers or very consistent, reliable performers. Ole does not seem to have that trait.