17 Mar 2021 10:24:22
A lot gets made of our poor defence, Maguire and Lindelof are not a great CB pairing. While serious questions have been raised about the quality of our forwards, particularly Martial.

Yet what I find interesting is not that much is mentioned on our midfield. While most people agree that McFred aren't a great partnership, few people really have any answers. We have players like Pogba and Donny in our squad, yet the reality is the best partnership we have is McFred. Finding the right balance is vital.

One thing I thought would be interesting would be to compare our double pivot with the other teams in the league. This isn't a perfect comparison as some teams tend to play with a clear midfield three. In those cases, I used the two midfielders with the most appearances.

City - Rodri and Gundogan
United - McTominay and Fred
Leicester - Ndidi and Tielemans
Chelsea - Kante and Kovacic
West ham - Rice and Soucek
Liverpool - Fabinho and Henderson
Everton - Allan and Gomes
Spurs - Hojbjerg and Sissoko
Villa - Luiz and McGinn
Arsenal - Partey and Xhaka
Palace - Milivojevic and McArthur
Leeds - Phillips and Klich
Wolves - Neves and Moutinho
Southampton - Ward-Prowse and Romeu
Burnley - Westwood and Brownhill
Brighton - Bissouma and Lallana
Newcastle - Shelvey and Hayden
Fulham - Anguissa and Reed
West Brom - Gallagher and Livermore
Sheffield Unied - Norwood and Fleck

What is quite clear when just doing a side-by-side comparison is just how poor our centre midfield is. I would say that City, Leicester, Chelsea, West Ham, Liverpool, Everton, Spurs, Arsenal, Leeds, Wolves and Southampton all have a better midfield double pivot than McFred. That's 11 sides with a better starting midfield, for a side that used to have Keane/ Scholes that is a massive fall from grace.

I'd further argue that Villa, Brighton and Fulham have a midfield of similar quality/ ability to McFred. Leaving McFred only definitively better than the midfields at Palace, Burnley, Newcastle, West Brom and Sheffield United.

How can we expect to compete with the best when our midfield is only definitively better than 5 sides in the league, of which 4 of then are battling relegation. That might go some way to explaining how AC Milan out played us so comprehensively last week. Kessie and Meite were better in every way, and that's without Sandro Tonali or Ismael Bennacer who were missing though injury.

I have a lot of affection for both Fred and McTominay, but the reality is that as a pair they are woefully short of being anywhere near the level we need to compete for the biggest prizes.

1.) 17 Mar 2021
17 Mar 2021 10:38:30
I don't think you can say that they are clearly our best pair, otherwise I agree. It's a woeful midfield but I'm confident that McTominay and DVB would be far more effective. Ole just has a problem with Donny.

{Ed077's Note - of all the players Shaps listed Fred is the worst in possession. And McTominay isnt the greatest on the ball either. Its easy to see where we have to improve to move forward as a team. We need an upgrade on one of them. Someone who offers the workrate and defensive play they do but are more effective in possession.}

2.) 17 Mar 2021
17 Mar 2021 10:44:50
Maybe VDB.

{Ed077's Note - He doesnt seem to have Ole's trust.

3.) 17 Mar 2021
17 Mar 2021 11:06:52
They may not be the greatest midfield . However they are effective in most games and Ole trusts them.
What we clearly is anoth creative midfielder in the mould of a Scholes or a Beckham. I have a feeling already know this and are likely to remedy it soon. I favour Ward Prowse who also is a dead ball special-ist and Grealish who can carry a threat, let's see what happens in the next transfer window.

4.) 17 Mar 2021
17 Mar 2021 11:08:30
I think that's slightly harsh on Mctominay and Fred, definitely not the best but better than the majority of midfields posted in the OP.

1.) Rodri Gundogan
2.) Fabinho Henderson
3.) Ndidi Tielemans
4.) Luiz Mcginn
5.) Kante Kovacic
6.) Mctominay Fred

No way i'm having hojberg (who just runs around kicking people) or sissoko (who just runs around) over MCFRED or Andre Gomes (who literally can not run anymore due to injuries and poor physicality) . Or Granit Xhaka who every other time i watch him play commits an error which leads to a goal.

People rightly rave about the likes of Rice and Soucek because they are effective but could you imagine that midfield at old trafford, i'd give it a grand total of 5 minutes before Soucek is booed like fellaini was and 10 minutes before Rice is called out on his lack of forward passes.

On the reason why donny hasn't been tried more in a double pivot is because physically he's not up to the prem level yet IMO, similar to fred when he first came, whether he gets there who knows.

{Ed077's Note - The Everton midfield to compare is Allan and Doucoure, not Gomes.}

5.) 17 Mar 2021
17 Mar 2021 11:11:45
And of all these teams, how regularly do they actually play the double pivot. All well and good pointing them out but I would say city and Liverpool especially before injuries tend to play with the one holding.

6.) 17 Mar 2021
17 Mar 2021 11:13:52
Fresh and CSF, don't get me wrong I'm a huge fan of Donny. I wanted him signed above someone like Grealish in the summer when we were linked to both and was glad we got Donny instead of Jack last summer.

That said in which game have you seen Donny show for us that he is better than either Fred or McTominay?

I think it's fair to say that Donny hasn't had a run of games to cement his place, but has he really excelled at anything when he has been given a chance.

He's been neat and tidy, but he hasn't progressed the ball forward quicker or created any chances, while his defensive work hasn't been as good as Fred or McTominay's.

Personally I feel for Donny to work in the double pivot for us he would need a true holding midfielder alongside him, someone in the mould of Rice or Ndidi. Someone who can do the work of McFred almost by themselves but maybe offer better technique than Fred and better positional sense than McTominay. That would give Donny more freedom and the security to give him a run of games to hit top form.

If you look at most of the teams who I said have a better double pivot than us, one point becomes clear. Those sides have one player who can do the work of both Fred and McTominay in a defensive sense, often with better technique.

Statistically McFred is our best midfield, and is our most used midfield. They have us in second place somehow. However I feel we are more likely in second place in spite of McFred rather than because of them.

I don't see there being a problem with having a workman-like midfield. Henderson and Fabinho are after all. Yet both of them offer solid technique and the ability to play the ball forward quickly and accurately as well as doing their defensive work. Both understand when to close down and when to mark the space, something sadly McFred struggle with.

Personally I think McTominay could become a great, complete box to box player, putting in crunching tackles, charging forward with the ball and scoring goals. He has a very clean shot, and is a threat in the air. I think he has the potential to be better than Soucek if he had a proper CDM alongside him that would give him that freedom. Similar technical level and physical presence, but more durable, and has a better shot. Could easily see him getting 8-12 goals a season from midfield.

I think we have some interesting options in midfield, the problem is we don't have the right blend to get the best out of any of them.

7.) 17 Mar 2021
17 Mar 2021 11:15:30
"Only definitely better than". That is only your opinion Shappy.

McTominay has certainly done enough to suggest he has more to offer after his performances this season.

I'm not sure why you'd look to replace both when it would be more realistic to replace just 1. If that is the case then for me it's Fred. I said a few days ago that he just isn't very good at football. It sounds harsh but he can't shoot or pass. HIs tackling is OK. His work rate is excellent. But at Manchester United we need someone who can pass, tackle and work hard in that position.

Looking at that list of players I'd say Rodri, Ndidi, Kante, Rice and Fabinho are the most defensive of those duos and all are better than Fred (my opinion) . You could argue others are too.

We've seen how 1 player can improve a side. I think a top class DM would have a similar impact to Bruno but in different ways. We'd look more solid, less worried about pushing forward and with a better passer of the ball we wouldn't have to rely on Plan A: counter attack. We'd actually be able to retain possession and get a grip of the game.

8.) 17 Mar 2021
17 Mar 2021 11:23:46
McTominay and Fred as a pair is doing the job of one top class defensive midfielder.

Although I like Fred, His ball control, first touch and passing is poor.
McTominay also lacks creativity and passing range on the ball.

One among Pogba or VDB has to play alongside Fred. Else it is just side ways and back way passes. Bruno often has to drop deep to receive and carry the ball forward.

9.) 17 Mar 2021
17 Mar 2021 11:48:01
In terms of a solution I think Valverde at Real Madrid is a wonderful player who would lift the team immensely.

10.) 17 Mar 2021
17 Mar 2021 11:59:46
How do you go about comparing when they all play different positions, some play with a two and some with a three.

McTominay is perfect behind Bruno playing as a 10.

This sounds more excuse making for Ole, despite having about 30 midfielders to pick from.

11.) 17 Mar 2021
17 Mar 2021 12:04:38
Shappy - I posted about McFred the other day and this may be an unpopular opinion but I think they are absolutely vital to our success. They provide the team with the energy, tenacity and positional discipline to allow us to attack with a front 3, No10 and push both full backs forward.

They make us defensively very strong and we are very hard to beat when they play together in the midfield pivot. I confess they can both lack composure and quality on the ball but they are team players and carry out the instructions of the manager.

People accuse Ole of not having tactics, style of play or any recognisable patterns of play but in my opinion our tactical blueprint is clear. Ole encourages individuality, he allows his front 4 to play with a degree of freedom and encourages them to find their own solutions. He likes both full backs to push forward and support the attack.

We’ve played all season without a natural RW and our CF’s have either been injured or woefully out of form. Consider that Martial, Cavani and Greenwood have only scored 11 premier league goals between them I’m just not convinced that McFred or ever the CB pairing are actually the principle problem. Mctominay has scored as many premier league goals this season as Martial and Greenwood in a predominantly defensive role.

If we added a top quality No9 and RW to our team we’d be much better and closer to City considering the way Ole wants to play.

I’m not convinced by Pogba in the double pivot. As soon as we play a half decent team we get criminally exposed defensively and for nearly 4 years we’ve been waiting or saying Pogba will be better when he gets the right partner. We all appreciate his talent but he doesn’t do enough off the ball and he’s not reliable/ consistent enough over the course of a full season.

Having thought about the way we play I’m just not convinced that signing a CB or CDM will improve us that much. Blow all our budget on a CB and we still have McFred in midfield and no RW. Blow it on a CDM and they will still have to line up next to Fred or Mctominay and we still don’t have a RW!

I still think signing Sancho this summer would improve us beyond anything else we could do in the market. I thought Greenwood looked very good against West Ham and maybe it’s time to see what he can do upfront. Next season if we had a front 4 of Greenwood, Rashford, Sancho and Bruno supported by the likes of Martial, Diallo, James, VdB etc I think we’d be much better.

I don’t even know if we’ve got the budget for Sancho but if we did I’d make him our principle target again this summer.

Take Thursday night for example McFred will almost definitely start the game and I expect the team will be similar to the one that started against West Ham. Ole’s plan will be to stay in the game then bring the likes of Pogba and Cavani on if we need a goal.

Ole will never play football like Pep or Bielsa. He loves McFred and Lindelof/ Maguire. It would take significant investment to replace them in the team and my fear is we buy players that Ole won’t use.

Get Sancho where we have an obvious place in the team and I’m convinced we’ll improve.

12.) 17 Mar 2021
17 Mar 2021 12:20:56
I'm with dlib if you attack with both fb a front 3 and a 10 you need 2 solid dm .
Proof is in the pudding and we are picking up points .

A lot on here say we have a poor back 4
A poor cm
Poor attack
Poor manager
No wonder they though we might get relegated.
Yet we finished 3rd and are currently second. That doesn't really add up to a poor team.

13.) 17 Mar 2021
17 Mar 2021 13:31:51
Or we can go and compare the attacking pivot of Bruno and Pogba. Is there a better attacking duo?
We could build on that marrying them with a top class holding to provide cover. But at the time the priorities wasn't a holding midfielder. The coach and fans all agreed that we are fine and we mainly want a cover for Bruno and one more upfront (Sancho) .
What we have is mirroring what manager wants and i said the same thing back then when everyone crying for a "cover to provide creativity when Bruno is missing". When you want to play good proactive football the priority is a holding midfielder to provide cover and good passes to our more advanced midfielders. But that was not the case with us because we wanted to be one of the same with better cover. I did see nothing to suggest we wanted to play differently. After all (back then) we had just lifted some trophies like the best team after sighning Bruno etc so why change this?

14.) 17 Mar 2021
17 Mar 2021 15:12:07
DLIB, you say Fred and McTominay are vital to our success? What success?

We have 50% win percentage in the league when they play. They also played against PSG and RBL when we needed a point to qualify. They were also playing when City knocked us out of the league cup.

That pairing is not good enough to deliver success. Fred is never going to be good enough to start week in week out for a team that has aspirations of winning the league.

McTominay has the potential to go up another level or 2 hopefully.

Ole has some choices to make if this team is to improve. Obviously RW and ST are the obvious upgrades needed. But if he has any ambition, the pairing of Fred and McTominay needs to be broken up because it is holding us back.

15.) 17 Mar 2021
17 Mar 2021 15:23:24
On what grounds does VDB even get considered? He would be last in.
I think that if Mctominay was given more of a free licence to get up and down he would become a more complete midfielder and certainly score more goals.
I still think we need a more creative midfielder, maybe two if Pogba decides he want's to leave.

16.) 17 Mar 2021
17 Mar 2021 16:08:28
Mumbles - On the basis that the CB pairing isn’t good enough either. We don’t have a natural RW, there are question marks over our No9’s and I’m not sure AWB provides the attacking outlet we need.

Vital to our success isn’t what I meant (we haven’t had any) and was a bad choice of words. Maybe vital to the way Ole wants to play is more appropriate. To be fair like my post the other day McFred play in our most difficult fixtures so 50% success rate is a touch disingenuous and doesn’t take into consideration the quality of opposition.

I’m sick of playing fantasy football with this team and prefer to analyse the way Ole wants to play, the transfer budget and discuss how best this team can progress under Ole and this board.

Whilst Ole keeps us in the top 4 he will remain in a job. We need to just accept this and move on. Unfortunately the transfer budget will not extend to a new CB, CDM, CM, RW and CF therefore tough choices must be made.

In my opinion I’d rather the Club sign Sancho than blowing the budget on someone like Kounde or Rice. We won’t get them all so we need to decide which player would have the biggest impact on the team. If we go for cheaper alternatives I have no faith that Ole would even play them above Maguire/ Lindelof or McFred anyway.

All I’m saying is McFred protect and shield the CB’s who simply can’t be left exposed. They make us better defensively and hard to beat. If we had a creative RW I’d think we’d find it easier to break down stubborn defences and therefore get more points. In my opinion a top quality creative RW would improve us above a CB or CDM.

I’m not talking about winning titles, to do that we’ll need a CB, DCM, CF and possibly a new manager. New owners with a bit of ambition wouldn’t hurt as well.

17.) 17 Mar 2021
17 Mar 2021 16:31:43
Dlib another good post that pal .
On Fred and mctom you make a good point also I wonder how many games we actually lose when them 2 play.

If there job is to give a solid base to the team is there an argument that even if we draw 0.0 the issue could be with the attacking players as opposed mcfred?

It's a team game, so for example defense and cm play well but attacking players have a mare it finishes 0.0 . Does the win success give a indication of how the cm or cb for that matter played.

18.) 17 Mar 2021
17 Mar 2021 17:05:04
The reality is all our spine needs strengthening.

De Gea v Henderson - Stick with DDG or look to the future in Henderson? De Gea looks clearly past his best last few seasons but is on £375k pw so unless PSG interested he will unlikely move.

CB pairing has been well discussed but part of reason why we default to Maguire / Lindelof is they are the only 2 who can keep fit - even then Lindelof has a known back problem.

McTominay - Fred partnership has lots of running etc and can break up play well but Fred in particular is woeful in possession. Great energy, good tackler etc but there have to be better midfield options surely?

Martial up top or a 34yo Cavani - answer next season has to be neither. Martial just not good enough and nobody will convince me otherwise after his FIVE seasons here. Cavani - pure class in his time but his prime was 5/ 6 years ago now and can't rely on him for 40 games a season let alone 60.

Accepting Pogba has been injured a lot over the last 2 seasons now but when fit he's the right partner for McTominay. Better at ball retention and impressive passing range and creativity. Is part of a double pivot in a 4231 his best position - I would argue not, but if that's the system of choice he is better placed there than Fred.

Could Van De Beek play that position - got to be worth a shot given how highly rated he was at Ajax playing numerous positions. However I fear that boat has already sailed and he will be off.

As well as deciding who the long term keeper should be, we need a CB, CM, CF to compete.

And a reminder there remains a lot of deadwood to shift.

Jones - made of glass
Bailly - made of balsa wood (though class on his day)
Tuanzebe - v poor injury record (as he missed some vital development time too? )
Dalot - I thought he could be a good squad option as RW but we have younger options there now
Matic - time to put Uncle out to pasture
Mata - as above though a training role in the offing?
Pereira - surely stays at Lazio permanent now
Lingard - West Ham perm move ideal for all parties
Pogba - new contract or goodbye in the summer and 90% sure its the latter
VDB - despite Pogba will he stay or go I suspect he will move as unhappy with no playing time regardless
Martial - Ballon d'Or payment never going to be made with this one so at least he will never actually be £50m down the drain.

Must be over £1m in wages per week there?

Ole looks like he is being backed by the board. Still a LOT of work to do on the squad to get us challenging for trophies and as ever this summer will be crucial to see who we buy.

19.) 17 Mar 2021
17 Mar 2021 17:36:49
Jred - I get people don’t like McFred. I completely understand they don’t think they have enough quality on the ball and some argue that’s why we struggle to break down stubborn defences. It’s a valid argument but doesn’t quite tell the entire story in my opinion.

I get the impression Ole and the coaching team don’t work that hard on attacking patterns of play or combinations. I think he gives his attackers a certain amount of freedom and allows them to find their own solutions. Maybe that’s a touch simplistic but I don’t think the players are drilled positionally from an attacking perspective like Pep does for example.

We have a basic team shape where the full backs are allowed to go forward and support the front four (CF, No10, RW, LW) . Ole relies on the individual quality of his attackers to create and score goals rather than any overriding attacking philosophy and that’s why we can sometimes lack rhythm and cohesion.

In order to play with a front 4 and advanced full backs the double pivot must be hard working and positionally disciplined. Also our CB’s lack pace and struggle in 1v1 situations therefore cannot be left exposed.

McFred do a decent job at providing the team with a platform to play. Shielding the CB’s and winning the ball in midfield.

If we had a top quality creative right winger we’d have another individual player capable of providing the attacking threat needed to break teams down making us a better side.

To compete for the top honours (league title/ champions league) I fully agree we need players in the double pivot that have more quality on the ball, but we also need a better CB, CF and possibly a more attacking RB.

Whilst Martial divides opinion it’s not beyond the realms of fantasy that he could find some confidence and have a good season next year. If you add Sancho, Rashford, Bruno and Greenwood you’ve got an attacking unit capable of being able to break down most defences.

McFred just make us solid and allow the attacking players the win the game.

We can’t afford to buy a top quality CB, CDM, RW and CF so in my opinion we must pick which position will most improve the team. If we buy cheaper squad options Ole won’t play them (VdB, Telles) therefore we’re still stuck with McFred and Maguire/ Lindelof!

I was appalled with last seasons transfer window but it has worked out almost exactly as I predicted. Cavani has been perpetually injured, VdB and Tellles have hardly played and the two youngsters aren’t ready.

We’d have been much better in my opinion only signing Sancho. At least he would have played and added undoubted quality to our attack. I think the same is true for this summer as well.

20.) 17 Mar 2021
17 Mar 2021 18:17:16
Dlib
I agree with a lot of that, on mcfred people don't think they are good enough so there is no debate just examples why they aren't good enough .
It's always a case of what they don't do as opposed to what they actually do.

As a team we certainly aren't as tied in to patterns of play in the final third and there is an element of individual play.
It's something pep pushed a lot at batcelona " it was his job to get the ball to the final 3rd, then it was done to the players "

I woukd of loved sancho last year, i'm not sure donny is as good as many make out .
Decent technical player, but his game suits a certain system and maybe even league .

I think we need a cb, bailly is injured again, tuanzabe is still one for the future imo .
And we need to sort the forward line out .
8 league goals between, martial, greenwood cavani and James isn't good enough.
We have drew to many games this year because we haven't scored or taken our chances.
Last year martial, greenwood and rash where on fire imagine where we woukd of been this year with the same form .
I think we are the "right" attacking player away from really clicking .

I would be very happy and confident it we signed the right cb and attacking player in the summer.