24 Mar 2021 07:05:13
The VDB situation is a weird one. A very skillful, technical player who is under utilized in the first place and when given the chance has looked good in parts but overall looks lost.

I think he could be a confidence player and needs more trust and time on the pitch to get going. Unfortunately it seems Ole doesn't know how to use him and probably doesn't trust him much.

The ideal scenario would be to play VDB/ McTom in the midfield 2 more often where McTom who has more energy to cover the ground just sits deep while VDB can sort of play the Carrick role by keeping it simple, control possession and look to move the ball forward. He is also clever at dropping into open spaces and ghosting into the box and can be a great asset building up attacks.

It would just be a real shame if he does go when you look at our midfield with players like Fred/ McTom as first choice.


1.) 24 Mar 2021
24 Mar 2021 07:21:34
The ideal scenario in my mind would be to push Ole out.
And go on and invest in 2 CBs that do not need protection.
I think the forward side of the team is not that bad as it's made to be, but the defense needs more work.


2.) 24 Mar 2021
24 Mar 2021 08:21:48
Lets Play - he doesn't look fully fit to play 90 mins most games as his movement drastically reduces after 60 mins on the pitch. I think he is being played in the wrong position as he is not a Bruno replacement, but an upgrade on Mctominay. Issue is McTominay runs around more than VdB and is more physical. We also lack a mobile CDM and a pair of good CBs which makes it difficult to play VdB in a box to box role. Get some one like Saul and a good CB into the club adn we can then see VdB flourish.


3.) 24 Mar 2021
24 Mar 2021 08:29:10
The longer Donny is here the more it reminds me of the Veron situation. A clearly supremely talented player whose just not suited to how we play or the EPL.

Donny plays his best in a free 8 or No.10 role in a high pressing possession based style. He is excellent at short intricate passes and keeping possession. Tactically working as a team to move the opposition out of position to create space before playing the killer ball. He isn't s particularly physically strong player (although he isn't weak), he isn't quick or has a high level of stamina.

He could adapt as he has the talent, but will he remains to be seen.


4.) 24 Mar 2021
24 Mar 2021 08:42:07
We are wasting his talent without giving a consistent run in the team.


5.) 24 Mar 2021
24 Mar 2021 09:27:25
I don't think dvb has played yet for Utd as one of the midfield two.

Ridiculous when his skills are exactly what utd lack in midfield.

It's not Solksjaers fault though is it Shappy for not even trying him in his normal position? More the player's fault of course for not being suited to the Premier league (whatever that means? )

{Ed077's Note - Southampton away. He had a little knock on his ankle from that game but played the whole 90 I think. Wasnt too bad in that game. Matic and DvdB as a midfield pivot with Bruno in 10 if I remember correctly.


6.) 24 Mar 2021
24 Mar 2021 09:43:59
You would have more success trying to convince me Donald Trump is an all round good guy than you would ole is a good manager.
Manc your wasting your time mate.


7.) 24 Mar 2021
24 Mar 2021 10:25:34
Shappy

You say Donny is best suited to a “high pressing possession based style” but that is also “not suited to how we play”. Did our manager not said that high pressing possession is the style he wanted to play?

That makes it sound like the manager said a style to the board, Donny fitted the style, so the club bought him for the style outlined. However, we now find out the manager isn’t able to set up or can’t coach the style outlined so Donny is stuffed.


8.) 24 Mar 2021
24 Mar 2021 10:30:00
Ed077, Fred and McTominay started in the 9-0 win against Southampton. If you remember Southampton went down to 10 men in the second minute, we were 4-0 up by half time which is when Donny came on at the start of the second half. We scored a couple of goals before Southampton were reduced to 9 men on 86 minutes. We then scored three goals in the final 15 minutes against 9 men who had played the majority of the game with 10 men and were clearly exhausted.

As for Donny, in that game for the 45 minutes he was on the pitch he touched the ball 17 times, attempting 16 passes with a 94% success rate. He made no key passes, he had no shots, he made no tackles, he made no interceptions, he made no blocks.

In a game that we dominated due to playing 10 men for the majority of the game and Donny had little to no impact either defensively or offensively.

I agree 7 starts is not enough to say whether he is a success or a failure. But in the 803 minutes he has played for us he 1 goal and no assists, he is averaging 2 defensive actions a game (around the same as Martial) .

So far he hasn't shown anything in any game to suggest he will kick on. The style of play we play is almost the exact opposite to what he played with Ajax. While the difference to quality of the league between the EPL and the Eredivisie is massive. Someone said he looks knackered after 60 minutes, does he have the stamina to cover the ground that is required in the EPL or with the style of play we use.

He clearly isn't creating or scoring enough goals or even having the chances to be a genuine option to Bruno with our current style of play. While he seems to lack the stamina and defensive qualities to play in the double pivot, while his passing over short distances is great, over longer distances it hasn't really been seen how good he is. Simply he has not played in a team that regularly play 40-50 yard passes from the midfield. So I'm struggling to see where he fits in. Maybe as an option on the RW against teams that will sit deep and make it hard for us to break them down. His skillset could work well in that situation.

I really want Donny to be a success, I said many times in the summer that I wanted him more than Grealish. If he flops its egg on my face. But so far he hasn't out performed or even shown the ability to out perform either Bruno at No.10, or even Fred and McTominay in the pivot.

I really hope this year is just a steep learning curve, that he increases his stamina and adapts to the EPL and our style of play. I'd love nothing more for him to have an "I told you so" season next year. But as yet I haven't seen anything from him to suggest that will happen.

{Ed077's Note - Read Shappy. READ.
Southampton away. The Cavani game. The 3-2 comeback win.

I don't think it's time for people to judge Donny either way. No matter what we think of him, he has played enough consistently to pass a final judgement. Just because he was good for Ajax doesn't mean he will be able to play to a similar level in England as well. But it also doesn't mean he can't play well if given a proper run.


9.) 24 Mar 2021
24 Mar 2021 10:40:16
As it stands, I can't see Van De Beek getting much game time. He's obviously seen by the manager as a number 10 primarily and ultimately our best player plays there. If VDB is to play as one of the pivots, we need a quality defensive midfielder which we don't have.

Fred and Matic are woefully below the standard needed and McTominay is a good all round midfielder but doesn't excel in many areas at the moment.

Best case scenario for me is manager realises Van De Beek is more than capable of playing deeper, he replaces Pogba (who leaves) and we sign a quality defensive midfielder like Rice, Ndidi, Zakaria etc. They replace Fred as the primary defensive midfielder, allow Van De Beek to play as a number 8 who can get forward but also keep the ball and Bruno continues as the 10.


10.) 24 Mar 2021
24 Mar 2021 11:48:33
Red Man, he did, and what we are seeing is certainly not that.

I'm also not sure how Bruno fits into a possession based team. His natural instinct is to play the high risk high reward passes. Every game he receives the ball on the edge of the opponent's box and there will be a safe pass out wide or further back, but Bruno will play the tricky trough ball, or a pass into space behind the defence for someone to run on to.

It's exciting and it's working. But it certainly isn't possession based.

Whereas Donny will play percentage football. He plays the sensible passes, the ones most likely to be received and not intercepted. If there isn't at least a 70% chance of the ball getting to it's intended target then he won't play the pass.

I'm not sure what went on between Ole and the board last summer. From what was said publicly it appears Grealish was the player the manager wanted along with Sancho. Seeing how this season has panned out I think it's fair to say we would almost definitely be in a title race right now if we got those two players.

As it is we got Donny and Cavani. Both good players no doubt. But one looks a poor fit for how we play while the other struggles to stay fit long enough to make a real impact. I think it's fair to say that this season Donny and Cavani have contributed very little and haven't enhanced the squad from last season in any sort of significant way.

Like I said originally, Donny's transfer has shades of the Veron transfer in that he is clearly a super talented player, but currently at least he either hasn't got to grips with the EPL or United's currently playing style. Which is pretty much what happened with Veron.

Do we blame the player? The manager? The scouting department?

In fairness all of them take a proportion of the blame.


11.) 24 Mar 2021
24 Mar 2021 12:53:47
rohanarora8, unfortunately we might have to put up with Ole for quite some time to come I guess.

Adding quality in DM and CB should help free up one of the midfield positions which VDB could then benefit from but even in our current setup why not play VDB in place of Fred/ McTom? Just give him a run of games to build up his confidence and see what he could do.

The truth is we will never know how good he can be for us unless he plays consistently and has trust of the manager which doesn't seem to be the case right now.


12.) 24 Mar 2021
24 Mar 2021 12:53:58
DVB needs a run of games. Veron got a run of games. Until then it is u fair to judge him.


13.) 24 Mar 2021
24 Mar 2021 13:52:14
He'll be leaving on loan to a Spanish team no doubt for two seasons with us paying his wages in full.
There's clearly no spot for him at present. It's almost like he was picked up as a contingency plan to replace anyone who left at the end of this season, Pogba most likely. Matic and Mata (different type of player) could leave for their swan songs this season if not next, and whilst he had been improving considerably, Fred's last performance was a shocker. McT is a fantastic all-rounder. The Rice rumours won't go away even if Camavinga would be better value. But I can't see a major rebuild of the midfield any time soon, it will be another summer dominated by the usual Pogba story.


14.) 24 Mar 2021
24 Mar 2021 13:54:30
Let's play, how many games are you prepared to see us potentially lose by giving Donny a run of games in the double pivot?

If he plays two games a there and we lose both would you suggest he gets a third, fourth and fifth game there so he can build up his form?

Or would you say he had a two bad games and it cost us 6 points, and we can't risk the next 9 points to give him a run.

All players need to earn the right to have a run in the team, they do that by putting in performances in training and as a sub or in occasional games that suggest they have what it takes to nail down the position if given a run of games.

Has Donny done enough to earn a run of games in the minutes he has played?


15.) 24 Mar 2021
24 Mar 2021 15:39:55
Shappy, arguably he hasn't done enough to earn a run but he's also barely been played in the double pivot in a game of note. You also have to factor in how well his competition in that position has played.

Pogba - Unavailable for a large part of the season and by far his best performances have been when played higher up the pitch. For the last 5 years we've been discussing how to get the best out of him, great a few times a season is what we should expect.

McTominay - All round player and in my opinion the best option we have in the double pivot. He will rarely if ever influence a game the way Pogba can but will never play as badly as Pogba often does.

Fred - Liability when we have the ball as he can't control it consistently, can't pass accurately on a consistent basis and can't shoot at all. Only plays well in "big games against big teams" which is to say when we are happy to have 30% of possession against sides better than us and he can just run around harrying the opposition. Fred is the worst footballer of the midfielders but he can run all day so gets picked. That says a lot about how the manager sets the side up, trusts athleticism over actual footballing ability.

Matic - Looks like his best days are well behind him, already slow and getting slower. Still tidy enough with the ball but his lack of athleticism in front of an already slow centre back pairing hurts us.

Subsequently, you have to ask has Van De Beek been considerably worse than the players above? People also seem to believe we'd be much more open defensively if Van De Beek played ahead of Fred for example. While he's not as defensively minded, maybe we would have more ability to keep the ball and in turn would not be defending as often?

{Ed077's Note - Its a Catch-22 situation with Donny now. You have to play consistently to impress and earn a place but you have to earn a place to play consistently.}


16.) 24 Mar 2021
24 Mar 2021 16:33:41
Shappy, all if's and but's again. You are willing to already put him down without giving a proper chance?

The thing is he is not some academy graduate trying to impress and get minutes in the first team. He has already shown what he can do in Ajax's first team and is highly regarded by many.

It is most logical when you have a skillful player like VDB coming into the team to be given more opportunities to see what he is capable of. I see the big reason he doesn't play much is because Ole is too scared to make a change as both Fred/ McTom give him more protection.

"All players need to earn the right to have a run in the team" so what do you think of Maguire, Lindelof, Martial given opportunities all the time irrespective of their bad performances?


17.) 24 Mar 2021
24 Mar 2021 16:53:18
Relax he will be arguing the opposite in a couple of weeks.


18.) 24 Mar 2021
24 Mar 2021 17:09:39
I'm beginning to suspect that Shappy might actually be playing a part to be on the wind up but I will continue anyway.

Thing is Utd paid £40 million for dvb. Surely that alone warrants him some games in his best position to show what he can do and build his confidence.

Another alternative to putting him in a double pivot is Utd play 433 with DVB alongside Bruno and McT or a new DM behind them.

I think a massive problem is that the team aren't coached to get the best of dvb. Even when he is in space in good positions or makes a good run, he doesn't receive the pass.

So it's not just the manager who doesn't know what to do with him it's his team mates as well which is down to the manager anyway.

Unless the other players don't pass to him because they think he is crap.


19.) 24 Mar 2021
24 Mar 2021 18:51:46
Let's play, should the team be picked on reputation or on performance?

How much stock goes into the reputation built up in a much weaker league.

The Eredivisie is probably weaker than the Championship in all fairness. Would you take a player from the Championship who has played very well and say they must be a starter for United?

I don't think he should be thrown on the scrap heap, but neither can you give him a run of games in important games that his performances aren't deserving of.

Now I said earlier in the season that I'd play squad players and kids in all the cups and just see where that goes so we could focus on the league. Personally I feel if we had done that we might be much closer to City in this odd season.

If we did that then he would have had a start in all the cup games to have a chance to prove himself/ adapt.

We should remember that Fred was a 50m signing from a weaker European league and it took him over a season to settle. He needed to adapt to the pace and power of the league. Maybe Donny needs to do that. Either way on what he has shown this season he wouldn't make a positive difference to the side if he was starting.


20.) 24 Mar 2021
24 Mar 2021 18:53:17
MancMan picking players based on their transfer fee is a dangerous tactic.

Surely if when given a chance you need to take it. Donny got one against Leicester, do you think based on that performance he deserves to start the next game?


21.) 24 Mar 2021
24 Mar 2021 19:26:47
Based on Leicester's game nobody deserves to start the next game. It was nothing but rubbish.
If Vardy took his chances, the score line would have been even more humiliating.


22.) 25 Mar 2021
24 Mar 2021 23:27:25
Shappy, I want to see him get some games in his proper position with the team coached and set up harmoniously.

I'm not saying uts should build a team around him but it's no good if dvb is trying to play football one way and others in the team are trying to do something different.


23.) 25 Mar 2021
25 Mar 2021 10:33:30
MancMan, What is Donny's "proper position", lots of talk about him playing in the pivot, yet during his time at Ajax he probably played in a double pivot maybe a dozen times. He has always played his best football closer to the oppositions goal, either as a No.10 or as a free 8 in either a 4123 or a 4231.

He was great as a No.10, very good as a free 8 and decent if played in the double pivot, clearly getting less impactful the further he was from goal.

When Dennis Bergkamp spotted him in the Ajax academy he saw shades of himself in Donny, or at least that is what he supposedly said to De Boer at the time.

This idea that Donny would be best suited to playing in the double pivot just isn't true. That has never been his best position, even playing in a much slower paced Eredivisie against much weaker teams than most EPL sides he was fairly average in that deeper role.